Nov
Excessive Engine Vibration with ECO on the Honda Odyssey EX-L and Honda Odyssey Touring
When American Honda introduced the current body style of the Honda Odyssey in 2005, the van had some new refinements. For the first time, many of the Honda vans included a factory sunroof, back-up cameras, and sensors in the front and rear bumpers, that notified the driver if the van was too close to a standing object, which was especially important in tight areas such as parking lots and narrow garages. The 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 Honda Odyssey has a considerable amount of additional room and creature comforts that were only dreamed about in the 1999 thru 2004 Honda Odyssey. One of the most important innovations that American Honda Motor Company incorporated into many of the Honda Odyssey vans in 2005 was the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) engine which cuts out cylinders when the are not needed, while driving at a consistent speed on a highway.
This is referred to as ECO or ECONOMY mode and it makes these Honda vans very fuel efficient when compared to their competition.
With this innovation of de-activating cylinders that are not needed, American Honda had to incorporate a rear motor mount that would dampen the added vibration of the dead cylinders while in ECO mode. This motor mount is on the Honda Odyssey EX-L and Honda Odyssey Touring models and has been known to start weakening within 50,000 miles. The weakening starts a progression of vibration and buzzing that is especially prevalent on acceleration and when the engine goes into the ECO mode.
The photo below shows a worn rear engine mount. As you can see, there is no air gap (where the arrow is pointing) so the engine block is resting on the metal part of the mount, which is connected to the frame. Because there is no cushion (support), this is where the buzzing and excessive vibration is produced.
The photo below shows the new motor mount installed. As you can see, there should be an air gap of about a 1/2 inch between the engine block and the mount (at the arrow). You can also see the darker rounded area (at the point of the yellow arrow) where the engine block was laying flat on the original failed engine mount.
As many of our readers know, here at Accurate Automotive and Accurate Auto sales, we love Honda and Acura products and we have dedicated both sales and service to Honda and Acura vehicles. With that said, while the ECO mode is a very good idea and has been successfully applied to the 2 wheel drive 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 Honda Pilots as well; American Honda should either re-think the design of this rear engine mount on the 2005 and up Honda Odyssey EX-L and Honda Odyssey Touring vans or adjust the ridiculous price of the replacement part . This rear engine mount has a shorter-than-normal life and is not currently the traditional Honda quality that American Honda has a reputation for. Currently, this is a very expensive engine mount and retail cost on this part at Accurate Automotive is $668.00 + tx, installed.
At Accurate Auto Sales we sell high quality Honda and Acura used cars. The photos in this article were taken during the replacement of the rear motor mounts involving two of our inventory vehicles. One of them was a 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L vin code 5FNRL38775B012737 and the other was a 2005 Honda Odyssey Touring (pictured above) with vin 5FNRL38805B078426. The 2005 Honda Odyssey EX-L had 59,651 miles at the time of engine mount replacement and the 2005 Honda Odyssey Touring had 83,057 miles at the time of engine mount replacement. Management of Accurate Auto Sales simply was not willing to allow either of these vans to be sold to our customers with a faulty rear engine mount. Do you think any other dealer would surrender $668.00 per unit, in profit to protect the next owners best interests in a similar scenario? That is why we say, “Come in and see why www.accuratecars.com is the best place in Nashville and Middle Tennessee to purchase and service your Honda and Acura automobiles”.
I have a 2007 Odyssey Ex-L with 24,000 miles. I brought it in because at high constant speeds, 65-70 miles per hour, a “slipping” sensation occurs. This sensation is significant enough that the passenger can feel it (causes both driver and passenger to surge forward a bit) and both the spedometer and RPM gauge shoot up about 5 points. I took it in and was told the rear motor mount was bad and replacing it should fix the problem. Unfortunately, it hasn’t. The problem is persisting. My car has been at the dealership for almost a week now the technician is communicating back and forth with Honda and Honda Corporation is insisting that this is normal.
Can you help? Any ideas what might cause this slipping sensation?
Thanks much,
Kelley Graham
Thank
December 4th, 2008 at 4:27 pmHey Kelley
I have spoken with Troy Ball, our Service Manager. He told me that the only thing should cause your slipping sensation would be when the van is going into the ECO mode.
I understand that you had the rear engine mount replaced already, but that is really the only thing that can cause this (based on age and mileage of your van). I have driven many Honda Odyssey vans back from Florida, and some vans are more abrupt, when they click into ECO.
With that said, make sure the other engine and transmission mounts are ok and please let me know if something else is found.
Currently, there are no service bulletins / service news articles that suggest any other possibilities…..and it would be a stretch to have EGR flow issues or torque converter lock-up issues with only 24,000 miles on the van….but you may want to specifically ask the dealership service department if they checked for these possibilites.
December 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pmBrian,
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer me! Now that is great service…
The answer the dealer came up with, and the Honda Representative agreed, that it is the VCM activation that is causing the abrupt hesitation/surging sensation. I have been doing some research (Edmunds and Odyssey forums) and have found that other Odyssey owners are having similar complaints. Both the service manager and Honda Rep agree that our van is more severe in its’ transition when the VCM engages. That being said, they contend the van is behaving the way it was designed, going from 6 cylinders to 3. Clearly this is not the smooth ride one should expect from a top of the line vehicle. With the other issues I have read about VCM (motor mounts weakening, vibration, and drone noise) clearly the VCM system needs rethinking and redesign. It isn’t reasonable to think consumers will spend mid 30’s on a van that has the above issues. Highway driving in our van is literally a joke! Being jerked forward in your seat when the VCM engages does not make comfortable highway driving. If Honda doesn’t address the issues this will be the last Odyssey we own.
December 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pmI have a 2007 Honda Odyssey EX-L when I start out moving and the engine is around 800 RPM up to 1600 RPM the engind is a little course and vibrates the steering wheel. Above that many RPMs everything is smooth and fine. I only have 12,000 miles and I thought it was just going thru the breakin period. But it has not gotten any better, or worse. When its doing this it is not in ECO. Any suggestions.
December 29th, 2008 at 8:59 amHey Mark,
Even though your Odyssey is a 2007 with only 12k on it, that vibration could be the airgap that has collapsed on the rear motor mount (as seen in the photos of the blog post). Without the airgap, the engine is basically sitting on the metal part of the mount, which is attached to the undercarriage; engine vibration could be significant under initial acceleration.
If you live in the Nashville / Middle Tennessee area, just plan on having our service department perform the next oil change on the van. With the Odyssey up on a car lift, our techs can easily see the condition of the mount (airgap) and then you would know, before going in to have it replaced under warranty…Because of many dealership service departments attempts to disregard warranty issues pertaining to vibration concerns.
Thanks for reading the blog posts….Visit often.
Ed
December 29th, 2008 at 10:22 amThank you so much for this website. This is exactly what is wrong with my Odyssey. I could easily check it and see that the air gap was not there. Thank you so much again!!!
January 9th, 2009 at 1:56 pmThere is a TSB on the engine mount (near the firewall)
Service Bulletin 06-083
December 1, 2006
Applies To: 2005–06 Odyssey EX-L – ALL
2005–06 Odyssey Touring – ALL
Excessive Engine Vibration at Idle or Below 2,100 RPM
SYMPTOM
The engine vibrates excessively at idle or, under load,
up to about 2,100 rpm.
PROBABLE CAUSE
The rubber inside the rear engine mount is torn.
CORRECTIVE ACTION
Replace the rear engine mount and its mounting bolts.
PARTS INFORMATION
Rear Engine Mount:
P/N 50810-SHJ-A62, H/C 8485906
Rear Engine Mount Bolt, 10 x 35:
P/N 90163-SDA-A01, H/C 7151350
Rear Engine Mount Bolt, 10 x 20 (four required):
P/N 90163-S5A-000, H/C 6462931
WARRANTY CLAIM INFORMATION
In warranty: The normal warranty applies.
Operation Number: 1121C3
Flat Rate Time: 1.0 hour
Failed Part: P/N 50810-SHJ-A61
H/C 7813967
Defect Code: 02101
Symptom Code: 04505
Template ID: 06-083A
Skill Level: Repair Technician
Out of warranty: Any repair performed after warranty
expiration may be eligible for goodwill consideration by
the District Parts and Service Manager or your Zone
Office. You must request consideration, and get a
decision, before starting work.DIAGNOSIS
1. Raise the vehicle on a lift.
2. Using a .610 mm (.024 inch) feeler gauge, check
for clearance between the rear engine mount’s
rubber bumper and its bracket. Also check the
shape of the rear engine mount.
• If you can’t get the feeler gauge to slide through
the entire length of the rubber bumper and the
engine mount bulges out (is shaped like a donut),
go to REPAIR PROCEDURE.
• If the feeler gauge slides through the entire
length of the rubber bumper and the engine
mount looks slightly deflated, this service bulletin
does not apply. Continue with normal
troubleshooting to find the cause of the engine
vibration.
Engine mount
bulges out.
Feeler gauge will not
slide between the
bumper and bracket.
REPAIR PROCEDURE
January 9th, 2009 at 3:22 pm1. Take weight off the rear engine mount by
supporting the transmission with a screw jack.
2. Disconnect the connector from the rear ACM
(active control engine mount) actuator.
3. Remove the rear engine mount stop (two nuts) and
the rear engine mount (five bolts).
4. Using five new bolts, install a new rear engine
mount in the reverse order of removal.
NOTE:
• Torque the new rear engine mount bolts to
54 N.m (40 lb-ft).
• Torque the engine mount stop nuts to
73 N.m (54 lb-ft).
5. With the screw jack removed, make sure the
exhaust pipe A bracket is centered in its rubber
mount. If needed, center the bracket by tapping it
with a hammer.
NOTE: Step 5 is not needed if the vehicle was
already repaired according to Service Bulletin
06-050, Droan or Moan When Driving at 2,100
RPM.
Ask for the “GOODWILL CONSDIDERATION” if it is out of warranty
January 9th, 2009 at 3:24 pmBetween 1300 and 1600 rpms my 07 EX-L skips abruptly and frequently up and down by about 200 to 300 rpms. This only happens when driving on level ground or up a very slight grade. Speed this occurs is 40 to 50 mph. There is also a droning sound that occurs at the same time. It is not the well known droning at 2100 rpms. At 2100 it is quiet.
I dont think the engine speed problem is the transmission. It feels more like electronics or fuel delivery or something else. I have also thought about torque converter lockup but I dont think that is it either. I have determined that it has nothing to do with the ECO light being on.
The noise occurs mostly when it is in the lower rpm 1300-1400 of this cycle. It almost has a metal on metal sound at times. Sometimes it reminds me of motor mount noise or exhaust manifold noise.
I am scheduled for a dealer appointment on Tuesday but would sure appreciate some insight as to whether others have had this or how it might have been fixed. I am somewhat of a gearhead but I am baffled with this. I just know it is making me crazy! Thanks in advance.
February 21st, 2009 at 9:08 amHey Steve,
The rear motor mount could be your problem and when it’s up off the ground at the dealership on Tuesday, look for the air gap on the rear mount. (as the photos in the original post show)
If there is no air gap, that rear mount is bad.
Another thing that you may want to do is when you are driving the van in slower traffic, click that OD button on the side of the gear selector to keep the transmission from going into overdrive. At speeds around 45 or 50, some Odysseys have significant engine vibration.
Keeping the van from going into OD during those traffic situations will be much smoother, and a less taxing load on the engine.
Ed
February 21st, 2009 at 3:06 pmThanks for your response. I took it in yesterday to my local dealer. They said the torque converter is the problem and it will be replaced either today or tomorrow. They seemed to nothing about motor mounts and said that that is definitely not the problem even though they did not check it. Once I get it back, where is the mount so i can check it myself?
February 25th, 2009 at 8:41 amPlease let me know if the torque converter is the remedy to your problem….I have my doubts, but I have been wrong before, just ask my wife…she’s keeping score.
I checked the latest Honda Service literature and found nothing pertaining to torque converter replacement as being a fix.
I did find a Honda Service Bulletin 06-050, dated 12-01-2006 that spoke about symptoms with the 2005 and 2006 models….It mentioned a drone at the speeds that are common with your issues and indicated the fix to be an updated exhaust “A” pipe and the rubber engine mount…but that was for the 2005 and 2006 models.
The motor mount is just above the power steering rack. The photos in the initial post article were taken with a 2005 model, raised on one of our automobile racks in the Service Department…this mount is nearest the firewall and can be easily seen by standing near the back of the driver’s front wheel and looking up towards the area where the engine and the transmission are mated.
Again, please let me know if your replacement tirque converter fixes your problem.
Sincerely,
February 26th, 2009 at 11:04 amEd
I have driven 100+ miles since I got it back and the difference is TREMENDOUS! It is so much quieter at all speeds, especially 75+. I guess there was vibration and noise coming from it almost since it was new. It is like driving a new car again. I had no idea there was that amount of noise that wasn’t supposed to be there. WOW. Shifts seem smoother - no groan, etc. I didnt expect a miricle cure but I seem to have gotten one.
March 2nd, 2009 at 9:45 pmI have had the exact symptoms with my 07 EX-L.
I also believe it is caused by the torque converter.
It looks like Honda has a problem that they are not willing to own up to.
I plan to take my Odyssey to a local dealer and inquire about the torque converter. However, I know it is going to be a long drawn out argument before they replace the torque converter.
March 6th, 2009 at 6:12 ami am considering buying a 2005 exl that is in beautiful condition. however they dealer has told me about the engine mount and they are replacing this now- assures me this doesnt hurt the actual engine and once it is fixed should be good as new. would you still buy? seems to be a known problem for the 05-06 odysseys..from reading the sight .
March 8th, 2009 at 4:05 amHey Pam,
If the dealer is replacing the mount, you should be fine. This engine mount dampens the extra vibration the engine produces, when it goes into ECO mode.
The original engine mount seems to last about 40,000 to 50,000 miles before it goes out and needs to be replaced. Whether American Honda has improved the design of the replacement mount, I have no idea; so you may be replcing it again in 4 years.
This engine mount would not keep me from buying the Honda Odyssey, because the Odyssey does not give a lot of trouble. Every vehicle, regardless of make, has some sort of problem that plagues it….Some makes (other that Honda) have a whole lot of problems.
If it is a van that you are shopping for, the Odyssey is the best choice over any other vans in the market….So yes, I would still buy the Odyssey.
Ed
March 9th, 2009 at 8:25 amI have a 2007 Odyssey Touring (and noticed the same “slipping” sensation (since buying the van). When I read Kelley’s comments, I thought they were my own. I had posted something very similar on a few web sites. I took the van to the dealer on several occasions about the issue. I was told the same thing, that the sensation caused when going in/out of ECO mode and that it was “normal”, that some people were more “sensitive” to it than others. They also stated that the computer was not showing any “codes” to indicate a problem. As Kelley stated, a $30K + vehicle should not operate like that. After taking it in for routine maintenance in January 2009, the problem got much worse (constant, more exaggerated transmission slip sensation, particularly at highway speeds). I took it back to the dealer and took the shop foreman for a test drive. He noticed the slipping sensation and stated it could be the engine mount(s). The dealer ran several tests (not sure exactly what the tests were but it involved hooking some sort of scanning device to the van while it was being driven to record “snapshots”. The initial diagnosis, based on the snapshots, was that the torque converter was bad but they needed Honda to confirm/verify. Just my luck, something happened with their computer system and the “snapshots” were corrupted before they could send them to Honda. I had to bring the van back in for more diagnosis/snapshots. After they had the van for about a day, I got a call back from the service rep saying they couldn’t get any positive readings from the snapshots to identify the problem. They kept the van overnight and ran more tests the following day. Apparently the tests revealed a problem with the torque converter and Honda has confirmed/verified. Maybe our van will FINALLY drive like a $38K vehicle should.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:54 pmAn earlier post from Steve indicated that the torque converter was his problem and the one thing that you can say about Honda products is, “they are consistent”. If one of them has a problem with a particular part, most of them will have similar symptoms and the fix will usually be the same.
Remember that all Honda automobiles that are 2006 or newer have a standard Factory Powertrain Warranty on them until 60 months / 60,000 miles….And the torque converter would be part of the powertrain.
Hope the torque converter is the remedy…Please keep me advised.
Thanks.
Sincerly,
April 2nd, 2009 at 6:22 pmEd
We have a 2007 Odyssey that we oddly enough bought from a Toyota dealership with 12000 miles. Started noticing the same ’slipping sensation’ that others have commented on along with a rpm jump when driving 45 mph - tach would go back and forth between 1200 & 1400 rpm. Took it in to a Honda dealer and they confirmed torque converter shot after only 28000 miles, total!!! I am shocked and concerned that I’m looking at a chronic issue. Anyone have any thoughts about how and why these things are going so quick? Also, thanks for the coments of the engine mount - will crawl under to check before taking it in for the torque fix (under warrantee of course).
April 3rd, 2009 at 8:21 pmHey Chuck,
Thanks for the entry. Honda and Acura products are built on a consistent platform. If one has a particular problem, 50,000 units will have the same problem and the same fix. Let me know how it works out. Also, remember that the torque convereter is part of the powertrain and the factory powertrain warranty covers these parts to 60,000 miles or 5 years from original date of delivery (if the torque converter failed again). One other thing, all Honda and Acura vehicles with automatic transmissions need to have the automatic transmission fluid changed (NOT FLUSHED) once a year or every 15,000 miles. For more information on this, please read our blog post on automatic transmissions. I place the direct link below:
http://accuratecars.com/blog/2008/12/11/the-proper-method-for-flushing-honda-and-acura-automatic-transmissions/
Thanks for your comments.
Sincerely,
April 4th, 2009 at 7:52 amEd
Have the same vivration issues with my 07 touring. Started at about 7,000 miles. Have had mounts checked. OK as per dealer service. I bought a set of
April 13th, 2009 at 5:02 pmfactory service manuals. I have come to the conclusion the problem is the torque converter management system. Torque converter uses a variable
apply system. Car surges when cold, apply is going in and out of partial to full apply. When transmission is hot the converter dumps in at to low an engine R.P.M. makeing the engine lug. Giving the appaearnce is the cylinder management system.
I suspect this is the cause of a lot of the exhaust drone issues as well. I think Honda is going to have a major bullit to bite on this one. Will be taking vehicle to dealership service soon. We will be having a major discussion on this issue.
Had torque converter replaced on above mention post by dealer under warranty - close to $1500. drove it from NC to OH 3 days later and was like a new car. Dealer was plesant to work with. Highly recommend having it looked at if experiancing simmular problems. Had to disassemble entire tranny to the point of needing an alignment after replacement (!!!) Thanks for the info. Forgot to check engine mount but car drives like new.
April 14th, 2009 at 8:16 pmMy 05 touring had an occasional problem with a stutter between 35 and 50, when accelerating. It felt like we were riding over rumble strips in the road. Sometimes the rumble would be gentle and other times it shook the dashboard. We tried unsuccessfully for 40,000 miles to get the problem repaired at the dealership. Finally, I did a search online for “HONDA ODYSSEY RUMBLE STRIPS” and found that the problem was a torque converter. After showing the dealership the printout of my online findings, the problem was fixed…..under warranty.
April 19th, 2009 at 7:07 pmReading these blogs above sounds like their driving our van. We also have a “07″ Odyssey EX-L with 32k miles. We have had our van into two different dealers now over the past 6 months for the shuttering effect as I have described it to the dealers. They understand my explanation of what we are experiencing and I leave the van. Twice they have scanned system for code errors and twice they have updated PCM Transmission software. Each time my wife tells me the next day that she still fells the shuttering effect. Yesterday we dropped it off again to our local dealer and explained to them that we are still experiencing the same shuttering effect. I shared with them examples of the motor mounts and the converter with little emotion from them. They drove it several times today and said that they never felt the shuttering that we explained. They said with out a code that they can read or a technician felling the problem when driving it, there is nothing they can do… but they understand that there is a problem. They did not even lift the vehicle to check out the motor mounts. UGH… I clearly understand that when the ECO is activated you will feel some difference in the standard vibration of the vehicle. Sometimes the shuttering is so bad the steering wheel shakes. We experience this at speeds between 25-35 and 45-55 and higher. When we take the van in we cannot get it to shutter for them or us. We are at a loss on what next to do. I wished I had read your blog sooner; I was just down in Nashville working at “The Tennesean” and would have brought it to your dealership for help.
July 14th, 2009 at 6:14 pmNEWS FLASH
Service Bulletin 09-053
July 21st, 2009 at 7:07 pmAddresses the torque converter judder issue.
I just had the rear engine mount replaced in my 2006 touring and the vibration around 2100 rpm (or 65 mph highway speed) improved but did not go away entirely. The steering wheel still gets wobbly over a range of speeds.
July 28th, 2009 at 7:50 amThe stability at higher speeds is much better than before the repair — cruising at 75-80 is pretty smooth.
Is there another possible cause for the wobbly steering wheel around 2100 mph?
The 2006 model is not covered by the 09-053 TSB for A/T judder.
Hey John,
The “wobble” in the steering wheel could also be the tires. The mount and the tires are the two most common sources for excessive vibration in the ‘06 models.
I noticed in your comment that you have a Touring model. The Touring models have the PAX (run-flat) tires and these tires rarely go more than 35 to 40 thousand miles before the tread is worn to the wear indicators.
I would recommend that you inspect your tires and if the tread is good, you may want to invest in a rotate and balance.
Thanks for reading and contributing to my blog post.
Sincerely,
July 28th, 2009 at 8:48 amEd
I cannot believe the amount of posts since mine! Wanted to report back to you all what we discovered in our lengthy process with Honda… NOTHING! Honda contends that our motor mounts going bad at 28,000 miles was probably due to a “part defect.” In addition, after all their computer anylizing and snapshots, have found there is nothing mechanically wrong with the van. Therefore, the abrupt surging at highway speeds is “normal operating function.” I am extremely disappointed with Honda. Clearly there is a link between motor mounts going bad and VCM activation causing the severe surging…until enough complaints come in I doubt Honda will formally address the issue. Good luck to all! For now we are living with atrocious driveability with little confidence in the durability of our “new” motor mounts.
August 25th, 2009 at 12:03 pmI have a 06 Honda Odyssey with 60, 400. I have been experiencing a humming noise when I am going 40 mph. Took the Odyssey to the dealership and they replaced the rear engine mount. Noise is still there. Took it back to the dealership and they still here the noise, but say that it could be the wheel bearings, but they told me that they can not replace them until the noise gets louder. While driving today, I am experiencing a much louder noise and vibration in the pedals when I am driving around 70 mph. This just started about a week ago. The dealership just wants me to wait for the noise to get louder. The noise is driving me crazy and would like to get it fixed. Do you have any ideas what could be wrong? I would like to take it back to the dealership for them to fix the problem.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:48 amHelp. Thanks.
Our service department has replaced a few rear wheel bearings on late model Odysseys for a roaring noise, but if you are feeling it in the pedals, it is probably in the front.
Have you recently had the tires rotated on your van?
If the tires were rotated when the rear engine mount was installed, you may have had a worn tire that was in the rear that was rotated to the front, directly under the driver’s feet.
Safely park the van, set the parking brake and then visually inspect the tires. Make sure that the steel belts ARE NOT exposed on the inside or outside edge of the tire and then run your hand, flat over the surface where the tread is…..Make sure that the tire tread area is even AND NOT SCALLOPED (like a sawtooth pattern).
If you have a scalloped (sawtooth) pattern that has formed on the tire tread, the noise you are experiencing may just be the tires causing excessive road noise and not a wheel bearing….Start by inspecting the left front (driver’s side front tire) first, since you are feeling this in the pedals
A good service department could identify a bad wheel bearing at any noise level….unless the streets are wet during a test drive.
Just because you are going to a Honda franchised dealer for these repairs, does not mean that they have a qualified technician working with and trouble shooting the noise that your van is making.
Hope this helps….
Ed
September 24th, 2009 at 9:33 amI have similar vibration issues with my 06 Odyssey after I had the ball joints replaced. Was told by a dealer service department (who did not do the work on the ball joints) that two of my engine mounts are damaged or torn. They indicated that it is quite possible that it happended when the ball joints were replaced. Does this make sense? if so then maybe I have some leverage to go back to the shop that replaced the ball joints to get the engine mounts replaced…
October 1st, 2009 at 10:03 amI assume that you are referring to the ball joints that are attached to the lower control arms in the front of the vehicle….And I do not know why they would have been in need of replacement so soon. We have not had any issues with lower ball joints on the 2005 thru 2009 Honda Odyssey vans.
With that said, the answer is “NO”
There is no correlation between having the ball joints replaced on a Honda Odyssey and any of the engine mounts being bad.
The Odyssey has four mounts that support the engine and the rear motor mount is usually the first to fail….Once the first mount fails, it places more stress on the other mounts, which can lead to pre-mature failure of those mounts as well.
Your Honda dealer knows that the rear mount is weak on the Odyssey vans and it sounds like they are trying to make you question the repair facility that has worked on your van.
Two things that I would encourage you to do:
1. Do not automatically put 100% trust in any franchised dealer service department. Some of the worst franchised dealership service departments hide behind the manufacturer’s sign and many times their arrogance is nauseating.
2. Make sure that the shop that replaced your ball joints is honest and knows what they are doing. Unless this was accident related, I find it hard-to-believe that you would need lower ball joints on a 2006 Honda Odyssey.
Hope this helps.
Ed
October 1st, 2009 at 1:07 pmThanks for the quick reply. Its a long story. We were having problems with the steering binding up in low speed tight turns such as when parked, especially bad in reverse. Assuming it is was something simply like the power steering fluid being low or a belt that was slipping, I took the car to a Firestone shop that does most of my routine maintenance and that I generally. They couldn’t find anything wrong with the power steering and determined that is was either the ball joints or the struts. They replaced the ball joints first but that didn’t fix the problem. Two weeks later they then replaced the struts and the stabilizer or sway bars. Although I am now convinced I probably spent a lot more than needed to at $1400, the steering does seem to be fixed. During the two weeks between the repairs is when I noticed engine vibration. I checked my dealer receipt and they specifically identified the front and right-side motor mounts as being bad. They want $800 to replace the engine mounts. Between all of the cost associated with replacing the stupid run-flat tires at about 25,000 miles and 2 more at 46,000 (because of unrepairable road hazard damage to one of them) and now all of this. We are not happy Honda owners.
October 1st, 2009 at 7:50 pmHey Dave,
I am not trying to preach, lecture, or try to shame you with this reply……But I hope you do not go back to Firestone, Goodyear, Meineke, Midas, or any other “general repair” shop with your 2006 Honda Odyssey Touring.
You van is well built and it sounds as though most of your “unhappiness with Honda” is self-inflicted.
While I have not seen your van, I am 99.999% sure that the $1400 that you spent for ball joints, struts, sway bars, ect. were not needed and the Firestone shop probably did not use Genuine Honda replacement parts….so the parts that you now have on the front of your late model Odyssey van are probably a cheaper, sub-standard version of what they took off….which again, was not likely causing your steering issues.
Your hard steering issues may return as winter approaches, and if it does, I would recommend that you reference Honda Service Bulletin 07-005, which was revised August 21, 2009…..This Service Bulletin reports that the power steering reservoir can be defective on all ‘05 thru ‘07 Odyssey vans.
The service bulletin states that the defective reservoir can cause a “buzz” or “whine” sound from the power steering pump in cold temperatures; but this whine or buzz is because the fluid is not adequately flowing through the bottom of the power steering reservoir, where a non-serviceable fluid filter is located. In warmer weather the pump may not make the noise, but the power steering fluid flow could still be restricted.
During low speed driving, such as in a parking lot; the fluid flowing through this reservoir filter would be critical and could dramatically effect the power steering assist is these situations.
Again, not trying to shame you, but this next statement won’t make your day…..The $1400 that you spent with Firestone did not likely fix your problem and because of their unfamiliarity with your late model Honda vehicle, they would not have known to start by replacing the fluid reservoir….which fair price for replacement would have been $50 to $75.00
As for the PAX (run-flat tires)…..I can give two suggestions.
1. Obtain the Odyssey EX-L wheels and tires for your van.
2. Obtain the Odyssey Touring (5 spoke) non-PAX wheels and tires for your van….ref another blog article (direct link below)
http://accuratecars.com/blog/2009/04/27/honda-and-acura-vehicle-owners-reap-benefits-of-a-bad-economy-at-accurate/
While changing out the wheels will have an initial extra expense, it is well worth it because the PAX tires wear-out very quickly compared to regular non-PAX tires….which you have seen first hand.
If you need some help with pricing the wheels, just call our service department (615) 220-0333 and ask for Troy or Jeff.
Hope this helps.
Ed
October 2nd, 2009 at 8:54 amEd and All,
Thank you for all of your postings and feedback on the possible problems and solutions. I just bought a used 06 EX-L and just felt a shudder (perhaps 1-second long) cruising at 30 mph and I believe it did go into ECO mode. I’ve only felt it once, but I wanted to search the forums just in case it starts to reoccur on a regular basis.
The car has only 25K miles on it and it is Honda Certified. If it is the rear mount going bad, is that considered part of the “Non-Powertrain Equipment” coverage?
Thanks.
October 2nd, 2009 at 5:40 pmI cannot answer for the warranty coverage because there are so many different ways that certain parts may or may not be covered under the factory warranty and /or the warranty that is attached to the Certified Pre-Owned Honda units.
With that said, the ECO mode shuts off two cylinders when going down the road at a steady speed and you will occasionally feel this shift over…..especially at low speeds with overdrive enabled.
When you are driving on a road where congestion and numerous intersections will limit your speed to a maximum of 50 MPH; I would highly recommend pushing that little button on the side of the gear shift, which will turn off the overdrive.
This will still allow the van to go into ECO mode, but it will prevent it from shifting into overdrive at low speeds.
Just think about it this way: If you were on a 10 speed bicycle and you were riding at low speeds or up slight inclines; you would not have the bike in 10th gear. Instead, you would keep it in a lower gear to make the resistence less on your legs.
Same difference….if you are on roads where the vehicle speed will not exceed 50 MPH; try pushing that button on the left side of the gear shift, which will prevent overdrive activation. This will still allow ECO activation but it will keep the engine at a higher RPM, and will be less of a load on the engine as well.
Hope this helps.
Ed
October 2nd, 2009 at 6:18 pmEd,
Wow…what a helpful blog. I just purchased an ‘04 Odyssey EX-L from a Honda dealer. Within the first week I began to notice a “shudder” when cruising between 25-30 mph (gas lightly applied…approx 1500 rpm). I felt the same sensation once at about 40mph (around the same rpm level). Some owners have aptly described this as being similar to driving over “rumble strips” on the highway. It seems that pressing or letting off of the gas pedal stops the shuddering.
Most of what I’ve found online points to the ECO mode / motor mounts as the potential cause of this problem with the newer Odysseys. However…mine is the ‘04 model (which I believe doesn’t have this ECO mode).
Thoughts on the potential cause(s) of this problem? I’m going back to the dealer tomorrow and want to make sure I get this corrected ASAP. Want to nip this in the bud so that I’m not facing huge repair bills to correct a problem that was there when I bought the vehicle. Are there any TSBs I should know about or can reference when describing this problem? Note that the oil jet kit recall/fix was performed on this vehicle.
Thanks!
October 5th, 2009 at 9:02 amThanks Ed.
This is my last comment. I have no doubt that I probably made a mistake on the steering repairs. While I have not heard any of the sounds you described and my problems were during the summer, I will definitely get the reservoir checked. That said, my disappointment is far from self-inflicted. The PAX tire issue is reason enough to be frustrated. My dealer also suggested the option of replacing the wheels when I replaced my first tires at 24,000 miles. After spending $42,000+ for a top of the line mini-van less than two years earlier, the thought of having to buy new wheels seemed outrageous. Honda should should have replaced the wheels for me if the PAX system didn’t meet expectations or standards. Obviously, that hasn’t happened but hopefully through the a class action lawsuit against both Honda and Michelin there will be some relief. Thanks again for your help, I wish that I lived close enough to your dealership to use you for service. BTW, how much should I expect to pay to have the front and right side engine mounts replaced?
October 5th, 2009 at 9:14 amThe engine mount information is below:
Rear engine mount Honda part# 50810-SHJ-A61 has a list price of $452.38
The installation of this rear mount should be between 3 to 3.5 hours, based on the labor rate at your local dealer.
The right side mount Honda part 50820-SHJ-A03 has a list price $57.75
The installation of this side mount considerably less involved and should only take a half hour, based on the labor rate at your local dealer.
Ed
October 5th, 2009 at 9:31 amHey Scott,
As you mentioned in your inquiry (#37), the 2004 Odyssey does not have the ECO mode and the particular problem that is covered in this blog article is not associated with your van…..
With that said, our Service Department has seen the symptoms you are feeling with the 1999 thru 2004 Honda Odysseys. The “shudder” that you are feeling is probably coming from the engine and this problem is likely to be related to EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) flow being partially restricted.
DO NOT TROUBLESHOOT THE TRANSMISSION OPERATION UNTIL YOU CLEAN THE EGR SYSTEM / PORTS FIRST
While EGR flow is a problem that will eventually result in the “check engine” light coming on; in it’s earliest stages the “check engine” light will not illuminate.
Whether you purchased this van as a “Certifid” or non-certified vehicle; this is a problem that a “Honda dealer” should have been able to recognize and fix prior to selling you this vehicle….If you just recently purchased it in the past few days.
If you wish to learn more about EGR Flow you can go to another blog article that I have written about EGR flow associated with Acura RL units (links below)…
http://accuratecars.com/blog/2009/08/13/egr-cleaning-improves-honda-and-acura-miles-per-gallon-mpg/
Hope this helps….
Ed
October 5th, 2009 at 10:02 amEd,
Wow. Thanks for the great info. It seems that a lot of people out there with a similar problem end up having the torque converter replaced. Are the symptoms of a clogged EGR valve similar to those of a faulty/malfunctioning torque converter? If so…are there any notable differences (besides the carbon buildup indicative of a clogged EGR and/or check engine codes) between the symptoms that one would see with one problem vs. those of the other?
Thanks—I’m in the Nashville area and will be sure to keep you guys in mind for my future purchases.
October 5th, 2009 at 11:26 amHey Scott,
The EGR causing an engine “shudder” is very, VERY similar to torque converter “shudder”.
That is why I indicated to start with the EGR system….There have been several automatic transmission and torque converter replacements performed that were caused by a clogged EGR system (that’s a $4000 mis-diagnosis)….
Again, you want to check the EGR system first.
Also, if you are in the Nashville area; we have an 8 bay service department that is staffed with former Honda and Acura dealership techs….that is why we are knowledgable about these units. While we do not profess to work on everything that rolls down the road, we know Honda and Acura “like the back of our hand”
It is very likely that the Honda dealer that you purchased your 2004 Honda Odyssey from will not fix your van at no cost to you….If you find that this is going to be an out-of-pocket expense, I would like to give you a personal invitation to come to Accurate. We will fix it and then write about it on this blog.
Ed
October 5th, 2009 at 2:58 pmHi, Sounds like I have the same torque converter problem on my 2007 Honda Odyssey with 60K miles on it. I am going to call the dealer but I am pretty sure I cannot afford the repair and I bought it used from a private party. So my question is, aside from replacing tires (that are cupping) more often, can I keep driving it the way it is? What other bad things can happen?
October 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pmYou never want to ignore a machanical issue with a Honda product….Sort of like keeping weeds out of the garden. If you ignore them, the problem grows to be a bigger one.
You said that your van has 60,000 miles on it…..If that is just under / just over 60,000 miles on the odometer, the torque converter may be covered under Honda’s 60,000 standard powertrain warranty.
The 60,000 mile powertrain warranty became a standard, no cost warranty starting with the 2006 model Honda products and it does not matter if you are the first owner or the 5th owner of the van….
It would likely be covered, but is in critcal that you get the van in to a Honda dealer and have record of it being checked for torque converter “shudder” ASAP.
Hope this helps.
Ed
October 7th, 2009 at 4:50 pmI just purchased an 05 Odyssey Touring Model. My wife had a blow out yesterday on one of the PAX tires. I got the dealer down to $1005 for 4 tires, gel, installation, plus alignment. Had I read these blogs before I bought times, I would have replaced the PAX system with regular wheels. The dealer said that could not be done. Then he calls and says the stems are cracked and need to be replaced, therefore needing more parts for a total of another $280. Then he called again and said the rear motor mount was broken and the rear shocks were leaking. I see all the posts about the motor mount, but are leaking shocks a normal problem?
November 2nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm2005 Honda Odyssey Touring engine vibrates/knocks when I speed up on a slight incline. It only happens at 40-50 mph and its started at 60k miles. I’ve since changed all 4 tires and had them rotated/balanced. I am not sure if its from the tire or engine. The car rides fine at consistent speeds its just when accelerating. Is this the motor mount issue I read above Does it have to be done at a Honda Dealer?
November 2nd, 2009 at 8:21 pmHey Richard,
Our service department has seen a few front & rear shock / struts leaking oil and this is possible. On an ‘05 model, if only one rear unit was leaking, you would still need to replace both rear units as a set….
As for the “stems being cracked” that would be part of the TPMS sensor and the stems are metal….I would personally question the severity of the “cracks”….However,if you do end up converting from the PAX system, you should not take a TPMS sensor off one wheel and install it on another….Honda doesn’t recommend that.
As for conversion from PAX tires; it sounds like you got a good price on the replacement PAX tires, but you can put the EX-L wheels and regular tires on your Touring van, regardless of what that Honda dealer tells you….There are other Honda dealers that are doing this conversion….You will not need new center caps or lug nuts….These parts will work with both the PAX and EX-L wheels.
I have posted the Honda part numbers below for your reference if you choose to convert from the PAX system:
06421-S3V-A04 TPMS Sensors
42700-SHJ-C91 Alloy Wheels
NOTE: If you do convert from the PAX system, remember to put a spare tire in the van…Even though you have a Touring model, the spare would still be stored in the same place that it is stored on an EX-L model (in the very back on the left “driver’s” side in the hatch area).
Hope this helps.
Ed
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:22 amHey Valerie,
Your vibration on acceleration symptoms sound like inner CV joint wear….The inner CV joint is part of the front axle assemblies and usually show wear by vibration during acceration….
While this could be the problem, I want you to do two things:
1. If you have a “check engine” light on, you need to fix that first…
2. Have a qualified technician check for wear on both inner joints.
Inner axle wear is VERY VERY rare on late model Honda and Acura vehicles, but it is possible…..Move slowly with this diagnosis and replacement of the front axle or axles.
Finally, if you have a faulty rear motor mount, this would need to be replaced by either a qualified shop that specializes in Honda and Acura repair (such as our service department) or go to a franchised Honda dealer….The rear motor mount is a BIG job and not something that need to be performed by a general repair facility (such as a Firestone or NAPA).
Hope this helps.
Ed
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 amI was told yesterday, by my Honda dealer, that I need to replace my torque converter. I have 83k miles on my 2005 Odyssey. He did say that Honda would help with the expense($800 of the $1800 expense). Does this seem fair? My husband was concerned that they offered. He says they offered because they are responsible for the problem in the first place. (Bad design?)He wants me to get the offer in writing so that I can take it to the Honda Doc (mechanic) to see if they would fix it for less and Honda “still” pay the $800. I trust my Honda dealer. I have just had to sink quite a bit of money into my Odyssey since I purchased it–AND I need new tires! Thanks for the advice about converting to conventional tires.
November 6th, 2009 at 4:40 pmI need your help, I have to change this Rubber Assy. RR and the FR Engine Mounting (ACM) 50810-SHJ-A62 and the 50830-SFY-023 for my Odyssey EXL 2006 but the mechanic is sure that each one has a special sensor and a plug, is that correct?
November 17th, 2009 at 11:27 amThere is a two pin plug in the rear motor mount (50810-SHJ-A62), but it isn’t anything “special” or anything to be intimidated about. The two pin plug is for the engine control actuator, which is inside the mount and cannot be seen (this internal actuator is one reason why the rear mount is so expensive)
With that said, the replacement of this rear engine mount is not an easy job and with the mount removed, the engine must be supported…..If “your mechanic” is telling you that this mount is complicated “with sensors and plugs”, then he probably does not want to tackle the installation of the new mount(s) and does not know how to tell you this….Or he may want to set you up for a real expensive repair bill.
Do yourself a favor and have someone replace the mount that has performed this task before…..This mount is expensive and the task of putting it in is not for the inexperienced.
Ed
November 17th, 2009 at 12:34 pmPlease do not read a harsh or rude tone in my response, because I do not mean to be…..
American Honda does not usually compensate non-franchised repair shops, except in desperate situations (such as if the vehicle is in an area where a Honda dealer is not located).
As for Honda’s offer “being fair”, that really depends on one major question….Can your mechanic perform the needed repair at a lower cost than the dealer, when you factor in the $800 financial help that American Honda will provide, if their dealer performs the repair?
If you have the Honda dealer perform the task, you get financial assistance that the manufacturer has absolutely no obligation to provide…..
You say “poor design” but your van has almost 100,000 miles on it….Can you imagine a domestic car manufacturer providing this goodwill gesture on a 2005 Plymouth Voyager or a 2005 Chevy Tahoe?
Your van has almost 100,000 miles on it and it originally had a warranty to cover it to 36,000 miles….The market has extended warranty policies that can be purchased, but they are rarely worth the headache….Usually it makes more sense to self insure the vehicle repairs than to work with an extended warranty company.
I know that sounded harsh, but when you boil it down, that’s what you have…..A manufacturer that has taken the position to help you because they want to show loyalty to you as a consumer of their products…..
Also, I was my pleasure to give you info on converting from the PAX tires.
Ed
November 17th, 2009 at 1:11 pmI have a 2006 Odyssey with 43,000. I do get a vibration at around 30-40mph right when the ECO turns on, but it is not extreme. Just bothersome. I tried turning off the overdrive and that does help some. I am trying to determine if this is how the Odyssey drives or if there is a problem with the rear engine mount or the torque control.
November 28th, 2009 at 2:23 pmI appreciate your comments and you have touched on something very important.
As your van ages, you may feel a slight jolt or vibration when the van goes into ECO mode. I do recommend that if you are travling at lower speeds, push the button on the side of the gear shift lever and take the vehicle out of over-drive (lock it into D3); as you mentioned doing when driving a speeds around 30 to 40 MPH….I do the exact same thing when driving a late model Honda Odyssey below 50 MPH.
Eventually, a collapsed rear motor mount (see photos in original blog article) will produce a “buzz” when the engine goes into ECU mode and when that vibration gets extreme and continuous (where your view is blurry when looking in the rear view mirror through the back hatch glass), you will then need to replace the mount.
But one thing to remember: When the van goes into ECO mode, you are de-activating 2 of the 6 cylinders in the engine and there can be a slight vibration or noise….This is an exchange of a vibration for 2 to 3 extra miles-per-gallon that the 2004 and earlier Odyssey units could not get.
Thanks for your comments and I hope this helps.
Ed
November 30th, 2009 at 5:39 pmI’d be interested to hear what you think of this:
2008 Odyssey EX-L with 25000 miles.
We live in Florida, but while in VA this week driving on a country road at speeds under 60 and air temperature in the low 30s I began to notice a vague low frequency whine with low speed acceleration around curves, etc. After it seemed to persist, I pulled into a parking lot and popped the hood. The noise seemed to be coming from the pulley side of the engine. With the engine off, I put my hand on the idler pulleys, they were all cool as was the serpentine belt. When I restarted the engine the noise was gone. Weird, but cold?
Love the forum,
Doug
December 29th, 2009 at 9:26 pmYour noise is likely to be related to Honda Service Bulletin 07-055, which was last updated August 21, 2009.
This bulletin is based on a hum, buzz, or whine type noise which comes from the power steering pump.
The bulletin gives this symptom, “The power steering pump whines, buzzes, or hums after driving for 30 minutes in temperatures of 35 to 40 degrees”.
The probable cause is a defective power steering fluid reservior.
Hope this helps…..
Ed
December 30th, 2009 at 9:26 amThanks for that tip on the service bulletin. I hadn’t thought of it specifically at the time, but the top pulley is the power steering pump, and that seems to be where the noise was coming from. I haven’t heard the noise since, but I am going to talk to my dealer here in Palm Bay, FL. Hopefully, the pump wasn’t damaged by that 40 mile drive on a Virginia ByWay.
Thanks Again, and I’ve bookmarked your site for future reference.
Doug
December 30th, 2009 at 5:06 pmMy 2005 Odyssey EX-L is making exactly the same noise from the “belt” side of the engine after being driven 30+ minutes in cooler weather. My local Honda dealer (10-20 miles south of you) explained to me that the power steering fluid reservoir needed to be replaced along with the tubing coming from the lower port. They wanted around $400 to do this, but I note that you had earlier posted that the reservoir could be bought for around $75. I’m fairly competent with the wrenches, is this replacement a job that can be done without special equipment? What does Accurate charge for the work?
Thanks!
Doug
January 15th, 2010 at 10:30 pmHello Doug,
I appreciate your comments and our service department will be glad to help you with your problem.
In cold weather there is a seal that can cause air to enter the power steering system. This causes the power steering pump to cavitate and that is the whine that you hear. Over time, this can damage the pump.
Usually, we can replace the seal and the reservoir to remedy this issue without having to replace the pump. Honda has reduced the price of the reservoir and the repair can be performed at Accurate, for about $110.00.
Because of the few “sue happy” people that live in our society today, we do not offer advice on how to fix something. This is especially true of brakes and power steering systems.
Our blog articles are written for informational purposes only to identify problems and that is why you do not see a step-by-step instructional in any of our articles pertaining to car repair.
Our service department is made up of former Honda & Acura dealership technicians, and we are very experienced with Honda and Acura products.
If you wish to attempt this repair by yourself then I wish you great success in the endeavor. However, it has been our past experience that people that do not work on Hondas everyday, usually endure more expenses in the final repair bill, than if they had simply come to our service department first.
I would recommend that you call us and set up an appointment to bring your van in.
615-220-0333
January 16th, 2010 at 10:41 amHI , I BOUGHT 2009 (US MODEL) EXL 2009 ODYSSEY WITH 3500 MILES. THIS VAN WAS WRITTEN OF IN RECORDS.ECO LIGHT WITH SHUDDERING NOISE BOTHERS ME A LOT. I CAME TO KNOW THROUGH YOUR BLOG THAT IN FUTURE I CAN HAVE TORQUE CONVERTOR PROBLEMS. I LIVE IN VANCOUVER CANADA AND DEALERS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ECO SYSTEM.CAN I SOMEHOW DISABLE ECO SYSTEM.
January 27th, 2010 at 9:46 pmECO mode is a good thing…..And you do not want to dis-able it….And I don’t know of a way to dis-able it without sending false information to the ECU (computer).
With that said, please realize that just because there is a lot of information about torque converter failure on the internet; not everyone is experiencing problems with it.
I do not recommend trying to dis-able the economy mode. However, I do recommend dis-abling overdrive, when you will not be exceeeding 50 - 55 mph. If you are on roads and highways that you are driving below 55 mph, simply turn off the overdrive by pushing the button on the side of the gear shifter. This will still allow the van to go into ECO mode, but it will not allow the van to shift into overdrive, which severely taxes the engine at speeds below 55 mph.
Ed
January 28th, 2010 at 9:20 amThanks for replying .your valuable info gave me lot of confidence to understand eco system. As you know i live quite far away from you .do you have any reliable dealer in USA near to vancouver (b.c.),so in future i can deal with them.
January 29th, 2010 at 9:55 pmI don’t have any particular Honda dealer that I can refer you to….
As you know, just because a business is franchised, does not automatically mean that they are competent….
Look at fast food….All McDonalds restaurants are franchised, but some are nasty and you would not eat at them….The same goes for franchised car dealers….All of them may be franchised by the manufacturer, but that doesn’t mean that they no what they are doing, or if they care whether your car gets fixed today or a week from next Thursday….
I suggest just doing your background reasearch before entrusting your vehicle to any dealer or repair shop.
Hope this helps.
January 30th, 2010 at 9:35 amEd
I have a 2006 Odyssey touring with the lovely PAX tires. I recently had to have my 4th flat tire replaced and while the car was at the dealership they discovered the rear engine mount was broken. After reading this blog, I understand that is no surprise. They told me that it would cost $750 to replace it. If it is broken, it is covered by the previously mentioned service bulletin? I called my advisor and he told me that it was not. When I pushed further and asked about the good will consideration, he said that he would get back to me. They also told me that they would not worry with replacing the mount. So the questions for you are: Does it need to be fixed? Will I have any luck with the good will consideration? Is there anything more I should do at this point?
Sorry for the long post, but my other issue is that it seems that my power steering is going out. When I make tight turns or pull into parking spots, it feels like I am moving the car with my own arms. Would this be covered under any service bulletin or am I on my own?
Thanks so much for your blog and your advice!
Lisa
March 4th, 2010 at 11:42 amI read your email and understand some of you frustration.
First, you can always install the EX-L wheels and tires on your van, even though it is a Touring model. If you do not like the EX-L wheels, you can move up to the 5 spoke Touring wheel that is found on the ‘07-present Touring models with non-PAX tires. Both of these wheels take regular tires, and it will be worth the one-time extra expense to remove the PAX system, if you plan on keeping the van for several years.
The engine mount is a pain in the neck, but simply dampens the engine vibration in Economy mode. The mount will need to be replaced soon, but there are a lot of Odyssey vans on the road with broken rear engine mounts. The engine vibration will get progessively worse in ECO mode and will put additional stress on the other mounts. Being mentioned in a Service Bulletin is not the same as being in a Service Recall. A Service Recall is safety related and requires manufacturer funding (such as the Toyota issue with the uncontrolled acceration). A Service Bulletin is usually a problem that has effected enough units that a Bulletin is issued by the manufacturer, so dealership service departments know what to look for, if a specific complaint comes in. These issues are rarely “Goodwill” honored (in full) if outside of the warranty period. However, you may be able to negotiate for Honda buying the part and you paying the labor to install it…..The part costs more than the labor, so negotiate for the part if they won’t fully cover the entire repair.
The Power Steering effort seems to be related to cold weather. The fluid simply does not flow well when very cold, and nothing reasonable can currently be done to remedy this seasonal issue.
Thanks for reading our blog articles.
Sincerely,
March 5th, 2010 at 11:04 amEd Brian
Accurate Auto Sales, Inc.
(866) 445-9570
hondaed@accuratecars.com
http://www.accuratecars.com
Specializing in the sales & service of Honda and Acura automobiles
Ed, thanks for running this web site. I bought a used 2006 odyssey ex-l and took it to the dealer for an oil change and was told that we needed to have the rear motor mount replaced. The van had close to 90,000 miles and the shifting was not smooth, especially going into overdrive. The economy mode was also less than smooth when driving.
After reading your web site I decided to have the mount replaced at a whopping $700. There was no “goodwill” consideration since the van had the milage it did. I’m happy to report that the van drives like a new. Gone is the excessive vibration in economy mode and the shifting has improved vastly.
I have one question though… where can you buy honda parts outside of the dealerships?
thanks for you help and if I’m in middle Tennessee I’ll look you up.
March 13th, 2010 at 11:16 amI appreciate your comments and I am also glad to hear that your Odyssey is running smoother in ECO mode.
To answer your question, we can possibly help you with Honda parts. Just give us a call or email us, when you need a parts quote.
Ed
March 13th, 2010 at 11:35 amEd, 2005 Odyssey EX-L, 80,000; just got the bad news on a torque converter replacement. Surprising to me is the lack of knowledge the dealer seemed to have about it. Meaning they didn’t diagnose the first time, and we had to be pretty direct with them about the low rpm shudder/vibration (i.e. check again). Now it looks like a rather common complaint. Is there any remedy with the “goodwill consideration” or are we stuck with the $1600 bill.
Another issue I am a little nervous of the dealerships competency of the 2 day repair, they couldn’t diagnose it in the first place. How common a repair is it, how complicated?
March 29th, 2010 at 9:36 pmI read your comment and I can somewhat sympathize with your frustration…. The average dealership service department has a very shallow knowledge of issues involving vehicles after 5 years / 60,000 miles, because most car owners find alternate sources for repair and maintenance in post warranty vehicles…..
Many franchised dealership service departments lack significant experience in troubleshooting and are about 50 / 50 on identifying an issue, and when the warranty does not pay for the repair, the customer “takes it on the chin” with the expense (including those expenses that are mis-diagnosed).
Many dealership service departments hide behind the manufacturer’s sign, which they use to create a false impression of expertise.
With that said, (and not to be harsh)…… If I were Honda, I would not cover a torque converter on a vehicle that was 5 years old, unless it was safety related…… And a shudder going into overdrive or ECO mode is not a safety issue.
Now that I given my opinion involving goodwill warranty consideration on your vehicle, I hope that you have not yet replaced the torque converter.
Before you replace any major components that involve removal of the transmission, I would highly recommend that you flush the transmission because that may fix your problem. We have had several Odysseys with severe shudder issues that were a result of old transmission fluid effecting the TC clutch….. I would highly recommend trying this first.
I have posted the blog article for proper Honda transmission flushing below.
http://accuratecars.com/blog/2008/12/11/the-proper-method-for-flushing-honda-and-acura-automatic-transmissions/?AID=10546635&PID=3144472
Thanks for reading our blog articles.
April 1st, 2010 at 9:46 amA friend and I both own the same vehicle (’07 EX-L). He recently took his Odyssey in for nothing but an oil change at 30,000 miles. A few days after the oil change he experienced something new that seemed like a transmission problem. He was told by the dealer it might be due to the recall that was done during service. The “recall” was reprogramming the computer in his vehicle. The reprogramming caused the torque converter to need replacing. Two out of three had this happen. I have 20,000 miles (3 years old) on my vehicle and wonder how I can avoid this sort of thing? Do I have a choice on recalls like this? My friend wasn’t asked for approval. Is this normal?
When I first got the vehicle it was smooth as silk and slowly developed into what I feel in the steering wheel. I am experiencing the vibration (drone?) described in the thread and wonder if most Odysseys have rear engine mount problems? The vibration varies with engine speed and is most pronounced at around 1500rpm.
Thanks for your help.
JD
April 3rd, 2010 at 9:14 amI can understand your friend’s frustration that the dealer automatically performed an update for the ECU without telling the customer first….. However, the reprogramming should not cause need for a torque converter….. Unless the check engine light came on with a trouble code to support that diagnosis.
I noticed that your friend went in for an oil change at 30,000 miles….. There is a major service at 30,000 miles that has more involved than just an oil change. I know that right now many are struggling with budgets, but if he cannot afford the entire 30,000 mile service, he should at least change the transmission fluid. The transmission fluid needs to be changed at least once a year. While this is not an expensive maintenance procedure, it makes a big difference in the shifting quality of the transmission….. This goes for your van as well…. Once a year, you should drain and fill the transmission, using only Genuine Honda fluid. It only requires 3 1/2 quarts of ATF and no filter…. The fluid is Honda part# 08200-9001.
As for the rear mount, you could have a mount that has collapsed (as the original thread describes)/. Simply visually check the mount as described.
Hope this helps.
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:11 amThanks. All good info to know and will have the tranny drained and filled at the next oil change. Also an inspection/check of the engine mount.
Here is additional info on what my friend experienced.
There is a TSB 09-053 from Honda that addresses this problem. http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A09-053.PDF
Thanks and keep up the good work.
JD
April 3rd, 2010 at 9:43 pmDid you noticed that American Honda is “throwing the dealer under the bus” in this service bulletin…. Above the “customer notification” section (on page 1) it says that American Honda will hold the dealership “soley” responsible for liabilities resulting from a dealer not performing the update, if the van comes in after this bulletin was issued….Which was July 14, 2009. That is why the dealer did not get permission from your friend, to update the ECU.
I spoke to our service manager about this and he informed me that a few of our newest customers had paid around $2500 for a torque converter replacement at some of the local Honda dealers in the Nashville area. These converters were replaced because of the “judder” and they were not covered under the 60,000 mile powertrain warranty because these vans had about 70,000 miles on them. These customers still have the same problem because just replacing a torque converter is not going to fix this problem…..
It is silly to replace the torque converter at a cost of $2500, when you can replace the entire tranmission unit (including the torque converter) for around $3500.
If you have a “shudder” / “judder” when upshifting, simply change the fluid a few times and see if it goes away….. If it does not, that problem is not going to have a long-term fix by just replacing the torque converter…… The source of the problem will be inside of the transmission itself….. But again, many times just changing the fluid a few times will correct this type of symptom.
April 5th, 2010 at 9:05 amGreat info here Ed, thanks for all the replies. Hoping you can give me some advice.
2007 EX-L with 29k miles. I notice no vibrations going in or out of ECO mode, but when I hit 68+ mph, start to get vibrations in the steering wheel, and it gets worse under acceleration, a lot worse. What would be your initial guess? thanks!
April 8th, 2010 at 8:52 amRick
Hey Rick,
Check your axles….. Inner CV joints (which is part of the axle assembly) can cause vibration under acceleration.
I know that you only have about 29,000 miles on your van, but we have had two late model Odyssey vans in our Honda inventory that needed axles before we sold them.
Your 60,000 mile Honda powertrain warranty (which came standard on all ‘06 and newer Hondas) should cover an axle assembly, if that is what is causing your vibration.
Hope this helps.
Ed
April 8th, 2010 at 9:33 amI recently bough a 2005 Odyssey Touring with 86k miles on it. The second day driving it I noticed the whole dash violently juddering while going up slight inclines at about 40mph. I have had three different mechanics look at it, the last of which was the Honda Dealership, who said that it was the torque converter and the rear engine mount, which will total $3000 to fix! I’m so frustrated!
I’ve been looking at this from so many angles and trying to figure out what steps to take first without going into extreme debt over a fix that I have no guarantee will work after all is said and done. My questions are:
1. Do I attempt to try just the rear mount first, or should I assume the mechanic is correct about the torque converter also?
2. Should I just try to flush the fluids a couple of times and see what that does, or should I still replace the mount?
3. Do I have any alternatives? For example, mine being an ‘05 I don’t have access to the TSB 09-053 mentioned above b/c it only applies to ‘07 and later, but is there something else I’m missing where the dealer can help cover the cost (besides begging, which I did and they said they’d knock off about $600 off the torque converter, but still that’s $2k down the drain)?
Thanks,
April 14th, 2010 at 11:21 pmKent
First off thank you for this website, it is very informative.
We just purchased an 08 Odyssey with 41,000 miles. I notice that when driving around 40-50 mph there is a lot of vibration. Middle console vibrates, rearview mirror vibrates, and sometimes you get an annoying thuder sound as if the back windows were rolled down slightyly.
I took it to the dealership and they did an update on the computer. - No change. The service manager road with me and agreed that there was excessive vibration. He suggested to check the tire balance. I got them to balance the tires. - No change. They said may be the tires. Van now has four new tires and alignment now and still the same vibration.
When I was at the dealership I asked them to check the rear motor mount and they claimed it was fine.
What are your thoughts? Do you think it could still be a motor mount issue or even the torque converter that some of the others have had?
June 19th, 2010 at 8:22 amThanks for you appreciation involving the blog. We work / research with great diligence to provide the most accurate and useful information that we can, pertaining to Honda and Acura vehicles.
If you look through the responses and questions pertaining to the initial article that I wrote, I think that you will notice that some of these responses / comments were pertaining to recently acquired used Odyssey vans that folks had purchased. Many of their complaints should have been resolved prior to their vehicle being marketed, but many times the buyer is motivated by either the great price that they can purchase the van for, or the fact that the dealer that they are purchasing the van from may be some kind of “hotshot” franchised dealer who may claim “we only sell the best / certified vehicles” or “we perform a 150,000,000,000 point inspection on everything that we sell”. The fact is most dealers (INCLUDING FRANCHISED DEALERS) simply “peddle” used cars and do absolutely nothing to them prior to marketing. For this reason, we list everything that we have done to each inventory Honda / Acura vehicle, prior to marketing it.
In your particular case, the vibration issue is likely due to inner axle joints being excessively worn. This will cause vibration at those speeds and under acceleration as well. Our service department has identified several late model Odyssey vans that needed these axles (there are two of them on your van, but you may just need one replaced). It will require someone that can accurately determine which axle is bad…. I would not recommend the institution that sold you a set of tires to fix the vibration. That was either a really bad mis-diagnosis or they were looking to make a tire / alignment sale that day.
If you need an axle, it should be covered under the Honda Powertrain warranty. This warranty came standard on all 2006 and up Honda vehicles and covers the powertrain for 6 years / 60,000 miles.
Hope this helps.
Ed
June 19th, 2010 at 9:20 amWell since this post I have taken the van to the dealership several times. They replaced both front wheel bearings, which did not fix it. Last week they rode with me with the computer attached to the van. We replicated the problem, they sent the file to Honda, however they said it is not a transmission problem.
July 10th, 2010 at 1:32 pmI asked them to check the parts that you had mentioned and they say they look fine. I am supposed to bring it back Monday for them to try again.
If the axles were the problem would it vibrate both during acceleration and coasting? Because it does it in both cases. I can also put the van in neutral while it is vibrating and it seems to continue, at least for a short span of time.
I can hear/feel the vibration at other speeds; it is just more prevalent at around 45-50mph. It is also much more noticeable on certain roads than others.
I wish I was not so far away, or I would take the vehicle up to you…
I do not know why a franchised dealer would replace front wheel bearings for a vibration issue, except that just like the tires, they seem to be simply guessing.
The axles (inner CV joints) can cause these vibration issues and our service department has had to replace the axle assemblies in some of our 2006 and 2007 model Odysseys because of inner joint wear. Just because they look ‘visually’ ok does not mean that there is not excessive wear in the inner CV jount cup and roller assembly.
Ed
July 10th, 2010 at 4:19 pmWell fortunately I did not have to pay for the wheel bearings, warranty covered it. However since last post, the van spent another day with techs supposedly trying to pin point issue. Unfortunately they still could not figure out where it was coming from. Service manager said that it may be just the road. He said this because I can’t get it to replicate on all roads, however I can always make it happen on the road that leads to my house. This road is straight with just a very slight incline and no stops signs. The speed limit is posted at 45mph which is about the speed that the vibration becomes very noticeable. During a test drive we did notice that the road had some small ripples in some of the same places as we heard the vibration. However this seems only to magnify the vibration.
July 18th, 2010 at 9:07 pmOn a side note I happen to find another 2008 Odyssey that had about 35K on it. I test drove it down the same road, and although there was some slight vibration, it was not near the extent of what ours does. We have also been driving down the same road for the past 7 years in various vehicles and never noticed the ripples before.
I also put the van on some ramps to check the motor mounts. I believe I saw the gap between the piece of rubber and the silver elbow. Is there a way that I can check the inner CV joints myself?
The dealership is wanting to blame that area of road, however, this happens on other roads with similar characteristics, it’s just harder to replicate…
I tried experimenting today when the road was empty. I ran the vehicle up to the point of hearing and feeling the vibration, switched the van into neutral, and shut off the motor. I still felt the vibration until the vehichle began slowing down. Any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
August 2nd, 2010 at 8:44 pm